Season 2 Episode 1:
Sex & Sexuality featuring Noah Michelson

Transcript

Phil: Hey, this is Phil aka Corinne…

Alex: And I’m Alex Berg. And you’re listening to…

Both: The I’m From Driftwood Podcast.

Alex: Over six years ago, our next guest sat down with I’m From Driftwood and shared the story of his early years navigating sex and sexuality.

Noah: I’m Noah Michelson and I’m from Racine, Wisconsin, which is a good place to go home to now but not a great place to grow up if you’re queer and especially in the 80s. And I was the queerest kid that I’ve ever met that I think anyone has ever met. I came out of the womb, ready to go. And not just queer but also super sexual and I don’t really know where that came from. And I don’t think anyone really does. And when I say that, my first memories and my first urges and desires were wanting to have sex with men. I had crushes on Mr. Rogers, I had a crush on Jesus, any kind of masculine figure in my life, I wanted to have sex with them.

One of my earliest memories though was of me being in love with our garbage man. And I just remember him, he had kind of a mustache but a very fine mustache and he didn’t wear sleeves in the summer so you could see his biceps, I think he had a really bad tattoo somewhere and I thought he was just so hot. And I remember one day I snuck outside and I was just in my underwear and I did a dance for the garbage man. I don’t know what that dance was like, I just picture in my head some kind of really horrible seductive dance that I had seen somewhere, I was probably 4 or 5 at the time. And he looked at me with a look of total puzzlement but also disgust. And he said to me, “What are you? Are you some kind of little queer?” And I remember turning around and going back in the house and finding my dad and saying, “Dad, guess what? The garbage man just called me a queer.” And I remember the look on my dad’s face, which was total horror, and he went to go and confront the garbage man, he walked towards the door and I said, “No, no, Dad wait, I like being queer.” And I didn’t really know what that meant then obviously, so I didn’t know what queer meant, I thought it just meant magnificent and unusual and not like everybody else and I thought that was something that I wanted to be.

So it was a very different experience than I think most kids had and I think I was super lucky to have a family who didn’t freak out about it, didn’t disown me, didn’t try to convert me, and I think that really sort of made me who I am today.

I think everyone’s story is important to share, I think the more that we tell our story, especially stories that are maybe strange or not the status quo or maybe even a little bit scary, for someone to say that I was a sexual child, I think a lot of people think like 1, that is a lie, kids can’t be sexual, or 2, there’s something wrong with you, or 3, you were abused. So I think that for me telling my story, I’ve talked about this before, I’ve written about this, and I can’t tell you how many people have found me and said, “I had the exact same experience, no one’s ever said that before.” So I think the more we start telling our stories, the less scary it is for people, and the more we can accept each other for who we are, and sort of all come to the table and say, “This is me, maybe it’s not who you were, maybe it’s not who you are” but it humanizes it.

Alex: Please welcome back to I’m From Driftwood Noah Michelson.

Noah: Thank you for having me. This is such an honor, and I am so excited to talk to you too.

Alex: The honor is truly ours. Now you and I go way back, but for those who aren’t familiar with you or who haven’t watched your I’m From Driftwood story, Noah, could you start off by just saying who you are and what you do?

Noah: So I like to say that I came out of my mom’s womb, like, just the gayest thing on the planet. And then that’s just… it continued. I then got a job at Out magazine doing gay stuff. And then I got poached by HuffPost and I started their first LGBT section. And now I’m running a section called HuffPost personal, that is people writing about their personal experiences. I love it. I get to help people tell their stories. It’s so gratifying. And then on top of that, I also have a podcast about love and sexuality called D is for Desire.

And we kind of talk about the stuff you maybe didn’t learn about the health class, everything from people who have period fetishes to a woman who sits on cakes to make a living. It’s just really interesting stories. And I love getting to do it.

Phil: I cannot wait to hear more about this, Noah. I cannot wait to hear more about that. That just sounds incredible. So, you know, like we mentioned earlier, it’s been about six years since we last spoke with you, how are you doing? Especially in these times, how are you doing?

Noah: Yeah, that’s such a good but loaded question, right? I mean, I like to always start and say, I lean into gratitude. I’m healthy. My family’s healthy. I still have a job. I know a lot of people who aren’t healthy or who don’t have jobs, but this is a really tough year. I got dumped by my boyfriend last December. I live alone. So I’ve literally spent the last year by myself for all intents and purposes. I went to the dentist in June and I got a teeth cleaning and, like, that was the most sort of touch that I’d had in six months. That’s a crazy thing to contend with, but I’m doing okay. I’m doing okay.

Alex: I hear that. You know, it really is a Testament to these times that going to the dentist is now a thrill. Well, I do want to go back to your original story. And in your story, you talked about growing up in Racine. Am I saying that right? Racine…

Noah: Yeah.

Alex: …Wisconsin. And you described it as a good place to go home to now, but not a great place to grow up if you’re queer, especially in the eighties. So talk to us a little bit about your hometown now. Have you been back recently? I know this is a tough time. Has it evolved? Is it any more queer-friendly than it used to?

Noah:  You know what? It is. I think like everything else it has… it’s evolved. I went home for Thanksgiving. This is so funny. I was walking downtown Thanksgiving morning and my… my city is very small. It’s like 70,000 people. And Thanksgiving morning I was at the crosswalk and I’m all bundled up because it’s really cold. I have a face mask on.

This guy rolls up to me in a car and he says, “Hey, do I know you?”

And I was like, “No, I’m visiting from New York.”

And he’s like, “Oh, well, do you want to come hang out with me for a bit?” And I was like, I’m so gay that this random guy in Racine, Wisconsin couldn’t even really see what I looked like, but he was still trying to pick me up. Like, I just thought it was so funny. So I feel like if there are people in Racine now who feel like they feel confident enough that they could do that, that’s coming a long way. I mean, when I was growing up, nobody was gay. You could not be gay. It was, it was terrifying to live there and be gay. So I think it’s come a long way. And I think it’s a Testament just to how much our society has changed. It’s exciting.

Phil: I mean, that’s a serious 180, for sure.

Noah: Right? Yeah. 

Phil: For sure. So you speak about being a very sexual child and that some of your first memories are urges to have sex with men, with questions on Mr. Rogers and Jesus. Jesus. I love that.

Alex: I love that.

Phil: Don’t you love that?  Who doesn’t love that. That’s amazing. I want to hear about that by the way. But have any of these crushes lasted into adulthood? That’s what I want to know.

Noah: Yeah. I mean, I still have the hots for Jesus. And when I say that I was a sexual child, I mean, we’re talking my earliest memories when I was four or five, I was already really interested in men. And not, like, the sweet, like, kind of like crush, like, Oh, you know, it was like, I was thinking about having sex with them.

So yeah, Jesus, I went to Catholic school. So there were those… those photos of Jesus with his very like honey blonde beard and those pretty eyes, which we know he doesn’t really look like. You know, that was, like, what a lot of the guys in Wisconsin looked like, too. So I would go to the grocery store and I’d see these men. And I would just think, You are hot. I want to have sex with you. And I think that that can be troubling for people to hear, because you don’t hear people talk about that a lot. But yeah. The other question I had with Optimus Prime from The Transformers, the semi-truck.

Phil: Amazing.

Noah: And I was so into him. And now if I still hear that cartoon from the eighties, hear that deep Optimus Prime voice, I mean, I still have to, like, fight off getting a boner. Like, I just… he was so hot. He was so hot.

Phil: That’s amazing.

Alex: I love talking to you is because you are not afraid to go there and you’re not afraid to be vulnerable. You’re not afraid to be upfront. And it strikes me that the topic of talking about sexuality as a child could be seen as very taboo. So were you ever afraid of sharing your story?

Noah: Definitely. I mean, people still balk at it. People still get freaked out by it. People still think that you shouldn’t talk about it. It’s just so weird to me because kids are sexual. Maybe not as sexual as I am. I say, like, you know, there was a while where I was like, Mom, did you do drugs while you were pregnant with me? Like why was I so sexual? And she’s like, No, obviously I didn’t. But, like, kids don’t – we don’t have a switch that gets flipped when we’re 13 or 16 or 18 and all of a sudden you wake up one morning and you’re sexual. So I think that it’s a scary thing because we don’t talk about it. I think it’s a scary thing because children can be sexualized. It’s different to say that kids are sexual, you know, that we sexualize children. Those are two different things but I wish we would talk about it more. And I think if we don’t, then it’s never going to change.

Phil: Agreed. I totally agree. And I think that’s a very important distinction to make, for sure. How do you think your story can help normalize discussion around childhood sexuality?

Noah: Well, I think it’s just that. I think it’d be more of us admitted that, you know, we had these feelings, maybe we play doctor with the kid next door, maybe we were curious about these things. Instead of just shutting down the conversation immediately and saying, Absolutely not. That doesn’t happen. That’s off limits. That’s, you know, that’s pedophilia, that’s disgusting. You know, and I also think that if… if I had had more examples of healthy ways for me to sort of think about sexuality, I wouldn’t maybe be thinking about, like, wishing that Mr. Rogers would get naked when I watched him, you know what I mean? But there was no discussion around it.

It was such a forbidden thing that then I was just left to my own sort of, you know, groping in the dark, looking for what did feel good. And a lot of shame came with that. Because again, I was going to Catholic school. I was being told that all these things were bad things. There was just a lot of conflict that was happening inside of me and I didn’t have any way to know what was okay, what wasn’t okay.

Alex: What you’re talking about, I feel like we just live in such a sex-negative culture more generally, even though I definitely think that it is even more sex-negative for LGBTQ kids. Like I think of being in grade school and it was seen as very innocuous for my peers to express if they, you know, had crushes or heterosexual crushes, of course, or even to like, play house and play out these very, you know, quote unquote normal heterosexual roles and relationship styles with each other.

But it’s seen as such deviance, I guess, if you fall outside of that norm. One of the things that you said is that you did experience a lot of shame. So, you know, how did you grow to kind of let go of that shame? I mean, is that something that you still feel like you live with? Because now you have such a deal – a great deal of ownership when you talk about your story,

Noah: Yeah. And it took a long time. I don’t feel that shame anymore. Now it’s for me, it’s just like, Fuck you. Like, this is who I am. But I’m 42 years old and it took me a really long time to get here. I spent a good chunk of my early teenage years literally writing letters to God and asking him to make me straight. And then I would rip them up so one would find them, but you know, after I finished my homework, that’s what I would do. And the year after ninth grade – my ninth grade year was awful. I didn’t have any friends. I was bullied so badly that I was suicidal. And I remember thinking, okay, when I get to 10th grade, I’m going to get a girlfriend and then everything will change.

And that didn’t happen obviously. And I just… I switched schools. I had all these maneuvers that I did to sort of be okay, but no, the shame… the shame just sits there and it festers and I think it’s better now. You know what I mean? 35 years later or 30 years later. Thank God. It’s better now. I think the goddess or thanks whoever you want to thank, but there’s still a lot of shame for queer people.

We still see people like Amy Coney Barrett, you know, people like that who don’t think that we should be able to be married. It’s still a huge part of our culture. And so we have to keep fighting. That’s what I always say. We just have to keep fighting. We’re going to have to keep fighting. We’re not there yet. Not over yet.

Phil: So true. And we also have to show up for each other. And so what I would ask is, is there any advice you’d give to young listeners out there who may be also feeling that shame?

Noah: I mean, first and foremost, it’s just, you are okay exactly as you are. I think even within the queer community, especially in the gay male community, there’s so much racism, there’s so much misogyny. There’s so many ways to not be the right kind of gay person. And there’s so much infighting in our community in general and so there – you can have shame for a lot of different reasons. I think you have to find the people and the things that make you feel strong and that make you feel okay. And luckily we have a lot more of those than we did in the eighties when I was growing up. We have movies now. We have books now. We have pop stars who are gender-nonconforming and use they/them pronouns. We’ve got a culture now that is much more accepting. Again, we’ve got a long way to go. But I think if you’re somewhere or you’re in a situation where you’re still dealing with a lot of shame, whether internal or external or both, I think you just have to find those things that can help you get through it.

I kind of hate the idea of like, It gets better. I believe that. It got better for me, but I think when you’re 14 years old and you – and you’re living in Racine, Wisconsin, and you’re getting bullied for being queer hearing, It gets better that doesn’t really help. Every hour is hell for you. And so I don’t want to sort of just be like, Don’t worry, it’ll get better.

I know that that’s not that realistic, but find the things that help you to really feel like you know who you are and cling to those things. Listen to that song you love on repeat every single night. Find those movies. Smuggle those books out of the library. Whatever you have to do, do it.

Alex: Revisiting your own story and the one that you told to I’m From Driftwood, I mean, it’s just – there’s so many amazing aspects to your story. And I especially love this one part where you were really candid about how you did a dance in your underwear for the garbage man and you recalled – or he, I think, called you a little queer, and then you recalled asking your dad what that actually meant. And in your telling of the story, for you, it was almost like some element of joy or cool or different was your interpretation of being called a little queer. So where do you think that sense of confidence came from at such a young age and… and that sense of self that you had?

Noah: Yeah, I was really young. I was four or five when I did that… the garbage man dance and, you know, I think it’s two things.

One, I think I was just totally clueless about what that word really meant. I didn’t know what queer meant or the context in which the garbage –  that hunky beautiful garbageman – was using it. But I think the other side of it is that I arrived on this planet different. And I always knew that. And a lot of times at difference felt like something that I had to bear and that I had to put up with, and that I thought might kill me, but there were still parts of me, especially before I got old enough to really understand that that difference was wrong, especially being queer was wrong, when I was still young enough to be innocent. That difference did feel like a gift. It felt like joy. And I thought being queer just meant you were magnificently different. That’s what I thought it meant. And I quickly learned that that’s not what it meant, and that’s why we reclaimed that word, right?

That’s why, you know, when I went to HuffPost week called the section I ran Gay Voices and I spent four years trying to fight to get the name change to Queer Voices. And when we finally did it, a lot of people were upset because they said that that word was a slur. And I said, I respect that. I understand. But for me, it’s not. And for so many of us, that word is about empowerment. That word is about joy. That word is about, I don’t want to be like the status quo. That is not where it’s at.

I arrived on this planet with that confidence. I lost a lot of it as I was growing up because of where I grew up and the people I was around. But at some point, it’s always been there and it was always there for me to sort of reach back inside and grab and say, All right, Now is the time that I’m not going to be afraid of this. It’s like a super – superpower, right? It’s like, I think that’s why so many queer people love like the X-men, because we relate to that. There’s something burning inside of us that you can’t see that makes us different. And we get to decide whether that thing is going to kill us or whether that thing is going to make us who we are.

Phil: That is so powerful. I love that. You said you had a different experience than most kids with your family not freaking out or giving you much of a hard time for being who you were. What was your official coming out like? How did you do it?

Noah: I was super lucky. I mean, my uncle was gay. He died of AIDS in 1990. And that was a real reckoning for my family. My mom had to deal with the fact that she had a gay brother. She never knew anyone gay before that. So my family knew I was gay. I literally was, y’all, I was the gayest thing on the planet. And by gay, I mean effeminate, which isn’t fair because there are effeminate straight men, but there was just so many signs that I was queer. But I didn’t come out until I was 19. I was in a love triangle with a friend of mine and his boyfriend. And I was really close to my family and I was going through this really traumatic experience at college and I really wanted to tell my parents about it and I couldn’t because they didn’t know I was queer. So I finally called them and I said, You know, as far as I know, I am a hundred percent gay and I always have been. And my mom cried and she said, You know, you just have all these hopes and dreams for your children and then they’re over.

And she didn’t mean that in a shitty way, even though it felt like that. She just meant, and I understand this now. She just meant, you know, she thought I would have kids. She thought I would get married. And in 1996, we couldn’t do that. That was not even on the table for us. And so my coming out, it wasn’t just about me. It was about them and who they knew me as.

But you know what, after that one conversation, after a few tears, they did nothing but support me. I am so lucky that I had that, especially growing up where I grew up, especially growing up when I grew up, I am forever grateful to have the family that I have.

Alex: So on that note, I want to switch gears a little bit to talk about your podcast, D is for Desire. You mentioned some of the stories and topics that you’re exploring a little bit earlier, but tell us more about the kinds of stories that you’re looking to tell on the podcast.

Noah: I always want to tell a story that I feel like people are curious about, they wonder about, but maybe they’re never going to talk about. Things that maybe do have some shame embedded in them or some wonder or some confusion.

So right now I’m working on the second season of the podcast. And we just did an episode about a person who is in a non-monogamous relationship. So they have a partner and their partner has a partner, and this person just went to their partner’s wedding during the pandemic. So they had to watch their partner get married to someone else.

And it, like, sort of blew my mind when I heard that story because of course, I mean, I think a lot of us know people who are in open relationships now or polyamorous, but to actually have it be that concrete where you have a partner and your partner is getting married to another partner and you witnessed all of that, what is that like?

So for me, it’s really just being able to get people to come on the podcast and talk about their lives and talk about the things that they’ve done. And the thing that I find, I mean, we have a tagline. The tagline for the show is It’s not taboo if it turns you on. And I think that’s really true. I think the number one thing that I’ve heard from listeners, it’s like, they want to know if they’re normal. And I hate that word, right? Because that word doesn’t mean anything or it means really dumb things. But everyone is out there and everyone has desires. Everyone has maybe a fetish, Everyone has something that they’re looking for. And I think we’re always really concerned, especially like you mentioned earlier, Alex, like, because our culture is still so sex negative and we don’t talk about this stuff.

We’re always really concerned about whether or not we’re okay. Is it okay to like this thing? Is it okay to be in this kind of relationship? What will happen if I don’t? And so some of these people are really pioneers. They’re leading by example, they’re showing us what their lives are like. They’re being brutally honest about it. They have a sense of humor about it most of the time. And I hear from people after they hear the episodes and they say, you know, I had an aromantic woman on. Someone who doesn’t experience romantic attraction. It’s different than asexual. We think about having a gender identity, sexual identity. Well, we have a romantic identity too, so she doesn’t get into romantic relationships.

I had a woman write me after she heard that episode. And she said, thank you for that. That’s what I am. I thought I was broken. And until I heard this episode, I didn’t know there was a word for what I’ve been feeling. That’s… that’s powerful stuff, you know? It excites me. It’s really an exciting, exciting thing to get to do.

Phil: I mean, these are stories that are helping people. You have to be really proud of that. That’s pretty incredible.

Noah: Yeah. And they’re also, you know, that can also be those. I use the word trashy sometimes, and I think people bristle at that because we have a negative connotation, but it’s just like a little bit, it’s a little bit fallacious.

You kind of say what’s going on there. And all the people I have on the show feel the same way they know that maybe they’re living outside of the realm of what quote unquote typical people do. And they’re proud of it. So I like that. I liked that intrigue. I like that allure. I want to talk about things that we’ve been told we should not talk about.

Phil: I love it. So D is for Desire. How would you define the word desire?

Noah: Oh, that’s such a great question. No one’s ever asked me that. The reason I picked that name for the show is because I like this idea of sort of… of it being almost like, you know, you’re learning something. D stands for this. We’re going to learn about that.

And then I wanted desire because it’s not just sex, it’s not just love, it’s not just intimacy. For me, desire is anything that pulls you towards something else. And a lot of times, yes, that is a person or that is a sexual act. But I think we can desire so many things in our lives and they don’t just have to live in the world of sex and sexuality. They can be… they can be romance. It can be companionship. I just like to think that desire has so many different facets to it. And I think we should talk about all of them more, you know? I think a lot of us grew up with this sort of like Disney-fied way of looking at the world where you’re waiting for your prince or your princess to come along. Yeah. Just two genders and the opposite gender is going to come for you one day and pull you on their horse. And then you’re going to ride off into the sunset and everything’s over. That’s not how the world works. And I think especially in the last 20 years, last 50 years, since the breakdown of the nuclear family, since the rise of feminism, of the queer movement, you know, since the civil rights movement, we’re seeing that the things we’ve been taught about how we’re supposed to behave, what we’re supposed to want, those things aren’t real.

And so being able to really examine that. And really start from a place of What do I feel? And that’s hard. There’s so much noise, right? And there’s so much coming at us all the time that I think it can be hard to really part those curtains and just look inward and say, Okay. Okay. I know that this exists. I heard about that, but what feels good to me?

I think the more we can check in with ourselves and do that, the better off we’re not only going to be, but like, everybody’s going to be. I’m excited about that. I haven’t seen that happen more and more, and that really gets to me excited.

Alex: As you cover these topics, is there anything that still surprises you or is there anything that even makes you blush anymore, Noah?

Noah: Oh, God no. I’ve seen a lot. I’ve done a lot, but I think the things that still sort of, you know, doesn’t make me blush, but again, I’ve never been in an open relationship. I’ve only practiced monogamy. The idea of an open relationship still kind of scares me. I think. I think because a lot of it has to do with jealousy. I think a lot of it has to do with the frameworks that I still buy into that I’m trying to fight against.

So I’m learning from a lot of these people, actually. I’m learning things about myself as I go through them on confronting my own fears. So yeah, there’s still a lot going on in the world that I need to learn about when you meet people, find out what their lives are, like, find out what their desires are like, and that’s what I get to do with this podcast. And that’s why I love it.

This is going to sound really cliche and I apologize in advance for saying this, but I really do think that it is – that you have to spend a lot of time figuring out who you are. I’ve been through a lot. But I think the other thing, and I hope this came across in this interview, is that, like, I don’t take myself too seriously. And I think that the way that we survive – and I think if you look at camp, I think if you look at a lot of aspects of the queer community, the way that we have survived as a community has been through humor, has been through taking the piss out of ourselves and out of each other.

Thank you guys for this. I feel like I just had a therapy session. I feel like I should be sending you two, like, you know, 250 bucks for that.

Alex: Noah, where can everyone find your work? Social media accounts, et cetera.

Noah: I’m on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all of it’s just Noah Michaelson. M-I-C-H-E-L-S-O N. There’s no A in there and you can find me there. Otherwise it’s HuffPost personal is the department that I run at HuffPost. Really proud of that. Love people to check that out. But yeah, I’m on Scruff. You can find me on Scruff. You can find me on Tinder. All over the place.

Phil: Good to know.

 

Noah: If you need me, I am there.

Phil: Noah, this has been so great.

Alex: Noah, I love you. It has been so good talking to you. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.

Noah: My pleasure and you two both take care of yourselves. You, too, Anddy. And I will talk to you all soon.

Phil:  The I’m From Driftwood Podcast is hosted by Phil aka Corinne

Alex: And Alex Berg, and is produced by Andy Egan-Thorpe.

Phil: It’s recorded as a program of I’m From Driftwood, a worldwide nonprofit LGBTQAI+ story archive.

Alex: I’m From Driftwood’s Founder and Executive Director is Nathan Manske. It’s Program Director is Damien Mittlefehldt.

Phil: I’m From Driftwood is a nonprofit organization, and this Podcast was funded in part by public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs in partnership with the City Council.

Alex: Additional funding is provided by TD Bank and Heritage of Pride New York.

Phil: I’m From Driftwood was created to help queer and trans people learn more about their community…

Alex: Help straight people learn more about their neighbors…

Phil: And help everyone learn more about themselves…

Alex: All through the power of storytelling.

Phil: Our score is provided by Elevate Audio.

Alex: The stories you heard today are available in their entirety, plus thousands more. And ImFromDriftwood.org

Phil:. You can also follow I’m From Driftwood on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. Or subscribe to our podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

Alex: Thanks for listening y’all.

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